tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8930190065426288711.post8363532213763178923..comments2024-03-04T16:50:15.828-08:00Comments on Hungry Tiger Talk: Map of Oz Monday - The 1914 Map of OzDavid Maxinehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12672089188117065118noreply@blogger.comBlogger22125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8930190065426288711.post-21331805728695033052024-03-04T13:56:17.396-08:002024-03-04T13:56:17.396-08:00In reply to Michael's comment about the Hollow...In reply to Michael's comment about the Hollow Earth theory: LFB could easily have been familiar with the Hollow Earth theory. I think it's very likely he was, since he considered Edgar Rice Burroughs among his circle of friends and Burroughs's first Pellucidar novel, At the Earth's Core, was published in 1914. The two authors could easily have discussed Hollow Earth theory. I don't really think Oz is located inside the earth, but LFB may well have known that Pellucidar is.ericshanowerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08879686211456482942noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8930190065426288711.post-74097091287862837172021-12-23T21:26:59.938-08:002021-12-23T21:26:59.938-08:00Hello,
greetings from a very Latecomer (but almos...Hello,<br /><br />greetings from a very Latecomer (but almost-lifelong Oz-fan since 1978)!<br /><br />I do realize that this blog post is almost 10 years old. But I only found it now, and while I'm here, I could just as well participate.<br /><br />About the reversed West and East directions:<br /><br />I wouldn't worry about it. Remember, this is not Middle-earth, where "miles are miles, days are days, and weather is weather".<br /><br />This is Oz. Pick any of the borderlands, for instance, and you'll see far stranger sights than mere reversed directions. (Mo, anybody?)<br /><br />Oz is a "fairy country", so it's not so odd that things we take for granted in the "civilized" world. Simply assume that Oz' strange natural laws cause the compass directions of East and West to be reversed... at least around the Emerald City of Oz.<br /><br />Whether West and East stay reversed outside of the four main countries, of course...<br /><br />But I am not so sure of the proposed idea that Oz might lie in the Earth core.<br /><br />For one thing, how do we explain the blue, open sky above Oz? There was never any indication in Baum's books that Oz was surrounded by an immense rock shell.<br /><br />For another thing, what about the Deadly Desert that separates Oz from all other countries while, at the same time, seems to connect Oz (and by extension) all the "Borderlands that are part of Oz's world) with our "civilized" world?<br /><br />That selfsame Deadly Desert is also the reason that I don't buy that Oz is on another planet, no matter what QUEER VISITORS may suggest. <br /><br />It is a canonical fact that the Deadly Desert surrounds Oz AND that the Deadly Desert is the direct link TO Oz. With physical, non-magical means, you simply CAN'T get to Oz without crossing that Desert.<br /><br />And if Oz was indeed on another planet in the sky, how can that possibly fit with what I summarized above? Is the Deadly Desert a sort of floating band made from deadly sand particles that spans the distance from Earth to another, who knows how far distanced planet?<br /><br />So, simply by the fact that, from the very beginning of the Oz saga, a hundredand twentythree years ago, the Deadly Desert has always been, on the one hand, both the link and the divide between Oz and the rest of our world, and on the other hand, clearly a part of our planet, we can dismiss the possible solutions that Oz (and the Borderlands around it) reside either within our planetary shell or on another planet, possibly in another galaxy yet.<br /><br />To say nothing of the fact that nothing of that kind has ever been suggested anywhere in Frank Baum's books, except as an vague allusion in QUEER VISITORS, which may be apocryphal, that is, not part of Oz' true continuity. <br /><br />QUEER VISITORS might be either a serial tale from some sort of "alternate" Oz, or it might be a series of stories told among the adult inhabitants of the Emerald City simply for their own amusement, or it might even be a series of tall tales dreamed up by the Woggle-Bug. <br /><br />Besides, the QUEER VISITORS or the WOGGLE-BUG BOOK don't seem any more authentic than Baum's own Oz musicals (although they're from Oz' very own creator himself), the Scarecrow & Tin Woodman newspaper strips or RETURN TO OZ.<br /><br />All of those works strongly seem to play outside of the "true" Oz continuity. So I wouldn't use those stories to make assumptions of Oz' supposed location.<br /><br />Okay, Happy Christmas to all!Andreas Kraußhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03561423946501346693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8930190065426288711.post-52822731713850107232015-10-29T11:25:55.377-07:002015-10-29T11:25:55.377-07:00Oz works perfectly in a Hollow Earth. One where yo...Oz works perfectly in a Hollow Earth. One where you go underground and gravity reverses itself when you reach the land of Oz. This would require a separate sun in the center of the earth and a floating night veil. I'm not sure how exposed to the Hollow Earth Theory Baum was though.Michaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09779567122093970131noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8930190065426288711.post-15691501564149641752013-02-07T09:52:25.994-08:002013-02-07T09:52:25.994-08:00An alternative to the theory of Oz being up in the...An alternative to the theory of Oz being up in the sky facing the earth: Try thinking of the map, not as an aerial view looking down from outer space, but as a view looking up from the center of the earth. This may just be an unconventional map projection, or it might imply that Oz and Nonestica are on the interior surface of a hollow earth, like Pellucidar. For comparison, see the reversed E and W compass points in some Pellucidar maps: http://www.bouncepage.com/Pellucidar/maps.htmlAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8930190065426288711.post-79025904492781809252012-04-08T16:10:30.812-07:002012-04-08T16:10:30.812-07:00@SFA - I guess I don't view the WHO'S WHO ...@SFA - I guess I don't view the WHO'S WHO map as the TIK-TOK map because it flipped the compass makign the Munchkins in the west. My references i nthese blog to the TIk-TOK map will always be in reference to the way it's printed in TIK-TOK with the Munchkins i nthe East (albeit on the left hand side of the page). So I'd sat the WHO'S WHO map is based on the 1920 reprint of the map.David Maxinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12672089188117065118noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8930190065426288711.post-16477983971749825692012-04-08T15:47:41.384-07:002012-04-08T15:47:41.384-07:00The Who's Who maps were still based on the Tik...The Who's Who maps were still based on the Tik Tok best I remember.<br /><br /> As for Dick Martin's maps solving issues, I just felt they added in some things that followed the books more accurately, such as the locations of Hi Land and Lo land being an island and shrinking areas like the Yips and Skeezers.<br /><br />I suppose after Thompson's books that shrinking those areas was necessary.<br /><br />@anonymous<br />I don't really understand why he moved Ojo's house north though, but I'm pretty sure it was because the text mentions it being near the Gillikin Country even though his house is said to be near Hammer Head Mountain.<br />There could be two Hammer Head Mountains though, I guess.saintfighteraquahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16195760262262189059noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8930190065426288711.post-6020060077560503452012-04-04T12:00:57.477-07:002012-04-04T12:00:57.477-07:00Thanks - I've added a sentence to the blog poi...Thanks - I've added a sentence to the blog pointing out the lake.<br /><br />I've plans to read Laumer's MAGIC MIRROR OF OZ soon to see how he dealt with all this.David Maxinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12672089188117065118noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8930190065426288711.post-13843423770980948142012-04-04T10:39:11.127-07:002012-04-04T10:39:11.127-07:00Yet another point is the nameless lake in the Emer...Yet another point is the nameless lake in the Emerald City area near the Winkie Country. Neill later calls it "Lake Quad" in his books and I believe it also figures in the unfinished stoty attributed to Baum, "The Littlest Giant". It is notable that in northern Winkie Country in the 1908 FAIRYLOGUE map there is a lake that is never noted again -- perhaps Baum moved it to the present area? In any event, none of his published writings mention it.<br /><br />Also, I believe that March Laumer deals with the east-west mix-up in his book THE MAGIC MIRROR OF OZ.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8930190065426288711.post-53799767386658930812012-04-03T21:30:32.725-07:002012-04-03T21:30:32.725-07:00While theatre directions have often played havoc w...While theatre directions have often played havoc with my own sense of right and left I find it hard to believe it had much effect of Baum's sens of east and west. Those two directions aren't subjective. The sun rises in the east regardless of where you view it from.<br /><br />But still an interesting observation.David Maxinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12672089188117065118noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8930190065426288711.post-72070014343255357352012-04-03T18:34:24.004-07:002012-04-03T18:34:24.004-07:00The star map theory made me think of another place...The star map theory made me think of another place where directions are reversed: the theatre. "Stage left" is the audience's right, and vice versa. Given Baum's theatrical background, could that have been in his mind? I kind of like the idea of Oz as a stage.Lillienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8930190065426288711.post-26554793319813365172012-04-03T15:48:17.605-07:002012-04-03T15:48:17.605-07:00Thanks, Scott :)
@Anonymous - Yes, we will be add...Thanks, Scott :)<br /><br />@Anonymous - Yes, we will be addressing lots of points like that as we get to future maps.David Maxinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12672089188117065118noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8930190065426288711.post-72006609392056170022012-04-03T14:13:59.086-07:002012-04-03T14:13:59.086-07:00There is another point that might be noted: the 19...There is another point that might be noted: the 1914 map (and others that copy it) have Ojo's home in the southern area of the Munchkin Country, and his PATCHWORK GIRL journey to the Emerald City going northward. Martin's Oz Club and 1968 Reilly & Lee maps have it in the north and the journey going southwards.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8930190065426288711.post-2086905888844470562012-04-03T12:52:10.779-07:002012-04-03T12:52:10.779-07:00Just a short comment to note that this blog is the...Just a short comment to note that this blog is the best information and insight I've ever read on the Oz maps and their creation, anywhere.Scott Olsennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8930190065426288711.post-59030095923516512112012-04-03T10:58:35.363-07:002012-04-03T10:58:35.363-07:00@SFA - Not sure I understand your comment. The TIK...@SFA - Not sure I understand your comment. The TIK-TOK map isn't in WHO'S WHO. The WHO'S WHO map is kind of the absolute opposite of TIK TOK as it shows the Munchkins in the West.<br /><br />What did Dick Martin's map solve? Dick's map is just a mirror image of the TIK-TOK map - both the geography AND the compass. Everything that's east is still east and everything that's west is still west.David Maxinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12672089188117065118noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8930190065426288711.post-54406055600106959822012-04-03T10:15:35.912-07:002012-04-03T10:15:35.912-07:00It never bugged me personally until I saw Dick Mar...It never bugged me personally until I saw Dick Martin's map and then I thought...oh! Is this how Oz is supposed to be?<br />I stopped drawing the Tik Tok maps after that (I'd been using the Who's Who versions).<br />As a kid, I had just accepted that Oz worked different than earth and that it was on another planet or another dimension.<br />The idea of a retrograde planet solves it for me.<br /><br />I do prefer Martin's maps since they solve most everything but the visit to the Munchkin Country in Ozma of Oz. (Maybe Ozma wanted to take the long way around the desert from Ev?)<br />Unless someone wants to rewrite the Oz books to make sense then we will all just have to use our imaginations. <br />And there is nothing wrong with that! :)<br /><br />By the way, I am loving Mondays now!saintfighteraquahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16195760262262189059noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8930190065426288711.post-57497440525795276222012-04-03T00:07:03.388-07:002012-04-03T00:07:03.388-07:00Your blog on the 1914 Map/s made me check my books...Your blog on the 1914 Map/s made me check my books of "Tik-Tok" and "Annotated" (I then realized "first edition" meant ORIGINAL printing, not the 2000+ version).<br /><br />Just from seeing these Blogs on a (my) Tuesday morning/afternoon shows you put extra time and effort into these Blogs than before.<br /><br />Can't wait to read it again and see the next instalment/s!<br /><br />Still don't QUITE get the "East is Left and West is Right" idea, though . . .Samhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00397876293747859812noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8930190065426288711.post-80559711962389789002012-04-02T23:37:51.663-07:002012-04-02T23:37:51.663-07:00The floating doesn't seem to help much. IMHO. ...The floating doesn't seem to help much. IMHO. And it certainly isn't supported by the texts of the Oz books. Despite that fact that the 1914 compass is non-traditional it is in full agreement with the Baum Oz books.David Maxinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12672089188117065118noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8930190065426288711.post-85810032874996611032012-04-02T21:56:44.490-07:002012-04-02T21:56:44.490-07:00the theory of Oz floating in the air would certain...the theory of Oz floating in the air would certainly solve some problems (but create others!) ... it's not like Baum hasn't shown us floating countries before.Mark R Hunterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07685591390353442531noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8930190065426288711.post-61088800221505392352012-04-02T21:54:09.538-07:002012-04-02T21:54:09.538-07:00That's why I think this map absolutely has to ...That's why I think this map absolutely has to be a deliberate choice. <br /><br />Even if LFB did draw it backwards by some fool chance - all he had to do was scribble a note and say "please reverse the drawing when you make the finished art for the book." No sane person would fix the mistake by changing the direction-compass to compensate for an inaccurate drawing. This map was clearly a big deal for Baum - he even got the publishers to do a second different map at the end of the book. No one would spend the money to do four-color endpapers that were different front and back, and then not bother to correct a mistake that would be evident to everyone along the production schedule.David Maxinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12672089188117065118noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8930190065426288711.post-41873618337678902012-04-02T21:19:17.774-07:002012-04-02T21:19:17.774-07:00I've always puzzled over the reversed map. I m...I've always puzzled over the reversed map. I made a reference to it in "Outsiders," but made no attempt to explain it. Still, why Baum made such a baffling change puzzles me, nor why no one noticed until 1920 and did the even more confusing change of flipping the rose over.<br /><br />My one thought is that perhaps Baum started designing the map with the earliest events in "The Wonderful Wizard of Oz," where the action begins in the Munchkin Country, and he traced the yellow brick road path to the Emerald City, but had started on the wrong side of the paper by going left to right. Perhaps he intended this to be corrected but it never was.Jayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03766446206846532440noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8930190065426288711.post-91488900090386030492012-04-02T20:37:30.595-07:002012-04-02T20:37:30.595-07:00Interesting - but I think that would mean Oz has t...Interesting - but I think that would mean Oz has to be floating overhead, facing down toward earth, and in a geosynchronous orbit.<br /><br />If Oz were on a planet or asteroid (as is suggested by QUEER VISITORS) then east and west would remain the same as for us unless said planet rotates backward. Assuming east is only determined by where the sun rises. But that would be exactly like earth if north and south were reversed, and neither of these scenarios solves the different set-up of the 1908 map.David Maxinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12672089188117065118noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8930190065426288711.post-82856987049703015432012-04-02T20:24:30.677-07:002012-04-02T20:24:30.677-07:00One other theory I've heard about the reversed...One other theory I've heard about the reversed compass rose: That's how maps of the stars are oriented. So (the theory goes), if Oz is in the sky, that map is indeed correct. And that theory ties into the publicity materials for "Queer Visitors from the Marvelous Land of Oz", so maybe there is something to that.Erichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02328723961556156210noreply@blogger.com